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By: SAMWAR10

3 Posts

What does Christianity say about homosexuality?

03/06/2006 15:27:41

Hi I´m working on a dissertation at the moment regarding the above and would really like to hear your views - do you think people are born homosexual or do you think it is personal choice? Is Christianity prejudice against homosexual people? All comments and opinions greatly appreciated to assist with my research.
Many thanks

By: mr-c
http://www.youthideas.co.uk/
154 Posts

Email: youthwork@hiede.co.uk

Re: What does Christianity say about homosexuality?

03/06/2006 19:46:14

I don´t know if it helps, but I did a talk with my youth group about this some time ago. You can find it here: http://www.youthideas.co.uk/yw/talk/010618-homosexuality.shtml

Other points I´m still not sure on myself:
- if the issue were adultery, idolotry or something else would peoples reactions / views be different? Would we still see such a big debate about this?
- if you go with the idea of been born homosexual how do you square that with the idea that God created us. Some would say if you could prove this then you would have proved that God created homosexuals...so it must be ok. However, other people would argue that because of the fall not everything in nature is as God originally intended.

By: pete
I am not but I know I Am.
428 Posts

Email: youthworkerpete@hotmail.com

Re: Re: What does Christianity say about homosexuality?

04/06/2006 16:54:20

I really would like to believe that God is ok with people being practiciing homosexuals, but without ignoring the bibles univocal approach to the issue, or trying to re-write the bible by saying it all comes rfom cultural prejudices and not from God, I´m forced to believe it is not what God wants for people.

Whether it is a choice or from birth, I have no idea! Certainly to some people it is a choice, but I would not wish to claim that is a universal truth!

However, I also believe the church is unnessicarially harsh towards gay people, each unconfessed sin is as bad as the other, yet would we stop someone who frequently illegally downloads music from preaching? If not, there is an inconsistency than needs to be ironed out.

By: SAMWAR10

3 Posts

Thanks

05/06/2006 10:01:19

Thank you for adding your comments they´re a great help - it´s a difficult issue I know.

By: SAMWAR10

3 Posts

Re: Re: What does Christianity say about homosexuality?

05/06/2006 10:04:44

_______________________________________________________
Your presentation was extremely helpful thank you so much for forwarding it to me.

By: mts

11 Posts

Re: What does Christianity say about homosexuality?

06/06/2006 15:12:01

I have many gay friends and I don´t know anyone who´s gay who would say they made a choice. Most say they tried their best to choose not to be. This is generally the understanding that is supported by psychologists and the medical profession.

The question that you have to ask is, why would anyone choose to be gay? Gay people, especially young people are treated very badly by society, and many of them are lonely and depressed through significant parts of their lives whilst they come to terms with their sexuality. It seems odd that we would then suggest it was a choice they made.

As for what Christianity says about the issue, it´s a subject of great debate in the church at the moment. I think it depends on how you read the bible, and what you understand of the nature of God from that. For many people, and I´m one of them, the bible is a history of the people of God, recording their understanding of the character and will of God in their time. This is consistent with the fact that throughout the bible, what is and is not OK, especially with regards to sexual ethics, is constantly changing.

This means that in the light of our current understanding of sexuality, which differs significantly from the understanding they had at the time the bible was written, we have to revaluate the Christian standpoint on sexual ethics, and see what we believe would fit in with our understanding of the nature of God and of the world. This doesn´t mean you ignore biblical texts, but rather that you consider all of them in their contexts.

Until the 19th century there was no such thing as homosexuality. We didn´t have any understanding that a person could have an underlying sexuality that would mean they would be attracted to one gender rather than another. Before then we took the Ancient Greek understanding that everyone was sexual and could express that however they wanted to. This new understanding has to be considered when we´re making pronouncements about what Christianity says to gay people.

If you want to read more on homosexuality and sexual ethics in the bible, there´s a short essay by Walter Wink, who is professor of biblical interpretation at Albany in New York. It´s only one of many texts that I’ve read on this issue, but i think it´s quite helpful.
http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/wink.htm

I think in terms of how this issue relates to young people in church, the first problem they usually face isn´t theological, it´s about them feeling rejected, sinful and alone in dealing with their sexuality. I think we often talk about these issues in church and in youth groups in a way that suggests it´s a hypothetical issues for some sinners far, far away. Too often we don´t stop to think that we´re talking about real people, and that some of them are in our youth groups and churches.

By: Timmy S

435 Posts

Email: youthworkertim@gmail.com

Re: What does Christianity say about homosexuality?

07/06/2006 09:53:23

Some thoughts on Christian youth work & ministry and the issue of homosexuality.

- First, any discussion about sexuality without talking about our humanity is bound to end up in confusion. Our starting point should not be about two kinds of sexual humans, heterosexuals and homosexuals, but rather about the two categories of humans we find in the Bible male and female. This we find in the Bible in Genesis Ch1Vr27.

So as a Christian youth worker/minister my discussion would not assume a particular type of sexual ´gene´ but rather encourage dialogue which uses words such as ´desires´ or ´inclinations´. This helps put things into some kind of perspective.

- Second, the Bible only calls for two kinds of sexual expressions, marriage and singleness. Genesis Ch2Vr24 endorsed by Jesus and also by the apostle Paul lays down an all-time divine ideal of one man/one woman monogamous lifetime marriage.

As a Christian youth worker/minister I hold to this and reject ALL extra-marital sexual relationships (including homosexual activity). Holding to this Biblical standard, helps our young people avoid endless speculation on the ´should we/should´nt we´ issue!

- Third, many Christians quote from the Bible…

John 3:16,17. "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

…and highlight the word ´believe´ as a pass to heaven (eternal life). I agree, however for me believing is more than intellectual knowledge of the ´facts´ of what Jesus Christ has done for us. It includes intentionally choosing to follow God´s plan rather than our own selfish human desires. The kind of faith that leads to salvation involves our mind (belief), our spirit (trust) and our heart (adoration).

The work of salvation however is all done by God and not us! We merely exercise our faith. That means the continuation of our salvation is not in jeopardy! Our salvation is NOT dependent on our code of conduct...or else we would all be in deep trouble!!! Since our salvation comes from God´s grace and not from our own performance, the gift of salvation is guaranteed forever. It´s a done deal that won´t be revoked by our screw-ups! Christ has paid for it all with his death. This is the concept of eternal security and the Bible states that nothing can invalidate our salvation. We find this in Romans Ch8Vr39.

- Lastly, Christian youth workers/ministers (and the wider Church) must make a twofold response on the subject. One being the prophetic (the rejection of homosexual practice as incompatible with Scripture) and two, pastoral (a sensitive pastoral ministry to people of EVERY sexual disposition).

It is normal for young people to think, reflect upon and explore their sexuality as they develop their ´whole´ identity (including physical, emotional, spiritual and social).

As a Christian youth worker/minister my response to young people who are ´exploring´ their sexuality would be to simply love, accept and teach the disciplines of the Christian lifestyle as I find it in the Bible. I believe our young people´s protection, growth and strength for the future must come out of ordinary everyday New Testament FELLOWSHIP in the context of authentic RELATIONSHIPS.

By: mts

11 Posts

Re: Re: What does Christianity say about homosexuality?

07/06/2006 10:24:22

___________________________________
Timmy S wrote:
"
Some thoughts on Christian youth work & ministry and the issue of homosexuality.

- First, any discussion about sexuality without talking about our humanity is bound to end up in confusion. Our starting point should not be about two kinds of sexual humans, heterosexuals and homosexuals, but rather about the two categories of humans we find in the Bible male and female. This we find in the Bible in Genesis Ch1Vr27.

So as a Christian youth worker/minister my discussion would not assume a particular type of sexual ´gene´ but rather encourage dialogue which uses words such as ´desires´ or ´inclinations´. This helps put things into some kind of perspective.

"
___________________________________

Hi Tim,

I was a little confused by what you said here, so I was wondering if you could give some clarification. Are you suggesting that you don´t raise the issue of homosexual attraction at all? It´s also not clear if you´re suggesting that people with homosexual attraction are likened to the opposite gender, (i.e. a guy who is attracted to a guy is likened to a girl, rather than a homosexual male). I´m not suggesting that´s what you´re saying, but I´m not clear.

I think you make a great point about not talking about two categories of people, heterosexual and homosexual, because sexuality is a lot more complex than that. I also like your point about bringing it back to a discussion of our humanity. However, I don´t think it works to suggest that the bible simply deals with two categories of people, male and female, because that oversimplifies humanity.

Generally I´m not sure that it serves young people well not to raise the issue of homosexuality in specific terms, because many young people in the church will struggle, often unnecessarily with this issue, and feel very isolated because of the fact that it´s never mentioned or acknowledged.

Can you clarify your meaning?

Thanks

By: Timmy S

435 Posts

Email: youthworkertim@gmail.com

Re: What does Christianity say about homosexuality?

07/06/2006 12:32:37

1. mts asked : "Are you suggesting that you don´t raise the issue of homosexual attraction at all?"

TS: Hi mts, thanks for your questions. In our youth work/ministry context we don´t usually teach on topics randomly! Not saying that is what you suggested... So something like the issue of homosexuality for example would be covered in a series that would look at Humanity>Relationships>Sexuality etc... I am currently in my first year of a new post and we have no plans for the moment to teach on human sexuality as a series until next year.

However if the topic did turn up through other discussions, my leaders and I WILL usually engage in appropriate dialogue. This sort of thing will obviously also feed into our team meetings/reflections...and as I mentioned earlier, eventually into a well-thought-out teaching series.

So the answer is yes, the issue will be discussed...but in a planned manner so that there is enough time to think, reflect, question and challenge.
________________________________________________________________________________________

2. mts asked: "It´s also not clear if you´re suggesting that people with homosexual attraction are likened to the opposite gender, (i.e. a guy who is attracted to a guy is likened to a girl, rather than a homosexual male)."

TS: Not sure where you got that impression from? Could you please quote exactly where in my previous post I may have made such a suggestion?!
________________________________________________________________________________________

3. mts said: "I think you make a great point about not talking about two categories of people, heterosexual and homosexual, because sexuality is a lot more complex than that. I also like your point about bringing it back to a discussion of our humanity. However, I don´t think it works to suggest that the bible simply deals with two categories of people, male and female, because that oversimplifies humanity.

TS: I agree with you on the issue of our complexity! Indeed, God has made us all unique and complex as the Psalmist put it in the Bible (Psalm 139:14-16):

"14 Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous–how well I know it. 15 You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb. 16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed." NLT.

...however I disagree with you on as you put it ´"oversimplifying humanity´". I am afraid for me it IS that simple! When I read the story of creation in the Bible, I read about God creating ONLY TWO types of human beings, male and female [u]whom he created to be with each other[/u]. I have already said what I wanted to say about marriage and singleness in my previous post, so won´t repeat that here.

Hope this answers your questions mts. I am happy to chat through PM for further dialogue and will not continue asnwering your questions here. You´ll need to switch PM on under your profile settings. Cheers!

By: mts

11 Posts

Re: Re: What does Christianity say about homosexuality?

07/06/2006 13:13:10

_______________________________________________________
Timmy S wrote:
"
2. mts asked: "It´s also not clear if you´re suggesting that people with homosexual attraction are likened to the opposite gender, (i.e. a guy who is attracted to a guy is likened to a girl, rather than a homosexual male)."

TS: Not sure where you got that impression from? Could you please quote exactly where in my previous post I may have made such a suggestion?!
________________________________________________________________________________________

3. mts said: "I think you make a great point about not talking about two categories of people, heterosexual and homosexual, because sexuality is a lot more complex than that. I also like your point about bringing it back to a discussion of our humanity. However, I don´t think it works to suggest that the bible simply deals with two categories of people, male and female, because that oversimplifies humanity.

TS: I agree with you on the issue of our complexity! Indeed, God has made us all unique and complex as the Psalmist put it in the Bible (Psalm 139:14-16):

"14 Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous–how well I know it. 15 You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb. 16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed." NLT.

...however I disagree with you on as you put it ´"oversimplifying humanity´". I am afraid for me it IS that simple! When I read the story of creation in the Bible, I read about God creating ONLY TWO types of human beings, male and female [u]whom he created to be with each other[/u]. I have already said what I wanted to say about marriage and singleness in my previous post, so won´t repeat that here.

Hope this answers your questions mts. I am happy to chat through PM for further dialogue and will not continue asnwering your questions here. You´ll need to switch PM on under your profile settings. Cheers!"
_______________________________________________________

Hi Tim,

My query is about likening homosexuals to their opposite gender was more to clarify your remarks, rather than to accuse you of saying something. I was, and to some extent still am confused by your comments about teaching male/female instead of heterosexual /homosexual. It´s not uncommon for gay men to be referred to using feminine nouns, and similarly with lesbian women. I just wanted to check that wasn´t what you were suggesting... and I assume from your confusion that it wasn´t.

My point about oversimplifying humanity is I guess two fold. The first is that I think there are many other things that make us distinct as people far more than our gender dose. I think a lot of men have more in common with a lot of women then they do with certain other men. I know this doesn´t necessarily carry across into teaching on sexuality, but I think that in general we can sometimes place too much emphasis on gender differences, and reinforce stereotypes that are often cultural... but we´re veering off into another topic here. I guess I’d rather us say there’s only one category, or there are too many to list.

The other issue is how you deal with transgendered people, and particularly hermaphrodites who are born with indistinguishable gender, and display some level of physical attributes of both male and female. This accounts for probably one person in every thousand. This is obviously very complicated, and I’m not suggesting we discuss it further... but I think it’s worth pondering on with reference to this particular discussion.

Anyway... I appreciate that you don´t want to discuss it any more in an open forum. I wasn´t targeting my questions at you personally as much as I was engaging in general open discussion, so I´m not particularly interested in discussing it off list because it limits the ability of other people to be involved and goes against the spirit of a discussion board, but please feel free to PM me if you want to.

Thanks